I’m fed with Mono
Of course I’m fed with Mono. I am so annoyed by the public passion for this technology that I won’t bother anymore to blog against it. A tiny mention though, in this short post.
First of all, I was exceedingly pissed off by a long pro-Mono plea by Jo Shields, which I have read as posted by Carla Schroder. I can’t comment on it, as I don’t want to read it again. It hurts my guts.
The only thing I can say: we don’t need Mono, the same way we don’t need Java. It’s not just about Microsoft. It’s about stupid people who try to force some technologies there where they’re not needed.
Look, someone from the crowd asserts that… «Whatever Mono haters say, the reality is that there is no at par substitute for GNOME applications like F-Spot, Tomboy and GNOME Do.»
Fact is, this is blackmailing. Just because some idiots started to write some specific desktop applications in Mono (although there were a plethora of other possible choices), because some other idiots included them into GNOME and as applications installed by default in their distros, and then because some people started to get used with those applications… now we should all accept and even love Mono?
Based on the same approach, OpenOffice.org should never have happened, because… «Whatever Microsoft haters say, the reality is that there is no at par substitute for Microsoft Office applications.» So everyone should be using now Microsoft Office under WINE, no matter the cost of the license!
There was no «at pair substitute» for Microsoft Windows as a desktop OS. There was no «at pair substitute» for Microsoft Office as a productivity suite. And so on. Why haven’t people accepted the dictate of the monoculture?
Because some of them were not that stupid. But right now, they are. They adopted the Mono-culture.
Wait, I decided I wanted to quote a bit from that Jo-person: «Speedwise, Mono is much faster than Python – up to several hundred times faster according to some benchmarks. It has a fraction of the memory footprint of Java applications.»
Well, as I said, Java is not for everything. To me, Java is a failure, and its only place is for some large enterprise applications. If any.
But Python… Python was meant to be a scripting language. There are a lot of dynamic languages, and nobody said C# should replace them all. But when a PyGtk application is slower than a Gtk# equivalent…
Sheep. This is what nowadays people are.
Jun 13, 2009 at 19:51
Distributions love F-Spot and Tomboy because while not being the only available applications of their type they are clearly the most feature rich.
I don’t use mono (Geeqie and gthumb for me) but that’s based on performance only. I used to use F-Spot and I stopped using it because of features I didn’t like i.e. Photos directory is sacrosanct….don’t touch it with anything except F-Spot or the database breaks. But that’s not a mono problem, it’s a design issue. Also it could get terribly slow with tens of thousands of images… like java apps.
There really isn’t anything that matches it for its handling of metadata, decent built-in simple editing, integration with Gimp, every picture available in one place instead of a access via directory structure, non-destructive edits via versions, talking to printers, export to, CD etc. It really is superior in many (not all) respects to everything else available in free software and it appeals to novices as well as advanced users. And it is free software. The FSF have no objection, and they’re usually held up as rigorous or zealous depending on your viewpoint.
Inevitably distributions want to ship it.
As mono is just one element of Gnome it’s hardly a monoculture (sorry for the inevitable pun).
The Free desktop had lacked a really good Photo manager for a long time. Gthumb and GQView etc are very nice but are still ploughing the same field as IrfanView and similar. The Gnote thing is interesting because it shows that with enough motivation someone can re-implement the Tomboy feature set in a less controversial framework and language. It’s a great shame that it takes fear/hatred of Microsoft to produce this motivation. If people who object to mono had produced applications as innovative and appealing as Tomboy and F-Spot I’d be more impressed and not regard Gnote as the uncharacteristically fortunate end product of a tantrum.
Jun 13, 2009 at 21:14
All Mono bashing is based on assumptions and ideology. None is important for real users. We just need Silverlight (Moonlight), F-Spot (can you find a better open-source app?), Gnome Do (maybe you've written something better?) and others. We will not allow anyone to limit our freedom to use what we want as long as it's free and open-source. Please Mono bashers leave your assumptions and ideology with you.
Jun 13, 2009 at 21:35
Sheesh… Comparing a compiled language against an interpreted one. Now I bet that Mono pet-guy really considered himself smart when making this up O_o
Anyhow, I've used some Mono apps times ago and found them to be surprisingly stable, at least as stable as their C/C++ counterparts. YMMV. However, I removed anything Mono from my box when I finally discovered the whole truth about the MS Mono smearing campaign. That stuff is just dirty, yuck! I'm with you: Stay away, folks! Stay faaaar away!
It really isn't about how good or bad the software is. It's about the _REAL_ ("real" as in reality, as in truth) threat Mono is to Free (not as in "Freeware") software.
Jun 13, 2009 at 22:16
Dim, you don't have brains. F-Spot is great for those who need its shitty features. I don't need applications to "manage" my pictures. All I need is a file manager (say, Nautilus) and a picture viewer which can do basic editing, and this is gThumb.
Once again, "I like this application" doesn't equate "the technology some guy used to write it is so great, and the application is that good because of that technology". Also, you did not understand anything of the blackmailing issue. You say that people NEED Mono just because 3 morons developed 3 good desktop applications using Mono?
Silverlight? Moonlight? What for? For a shit even more smelling than Macromedia/Adobe Flash? You seem to like the bling-bling. Why don't you buy a Mac instead?
Jun 13, 2009 at 23:30
You use Nautilus for managing pictures? You either have 2 of them or just “you don’t have brains”, as you say. But that’s your problem not affecting Mono discussion at all as all you can do in this case is just take out and criticize one application.
And I do understand blackmail issue. Some smart people have created a few good apps which some silly guy doesn’t want other people to use just because they’re based on a technology which he just hates for some reasons known to him only. That’s blackmail.
I’m happy that people like you don’t drive the future of Linux, otherwise we’ll end with an OS which just can’t do anything. All you can do is just talk and spread your hate. Maybe you could write your own Gnome Do in a “perfect” technology? No, you won’t.
Now that you’ve shown your way to discuss things, I’m ending discussion with you and won’t return to your site anymore.
Jun 13, 2009 at 23:47
Oh boy, now I know why the Linux desktop environments are getting thousands of bugs and half-baked features with the speed of light in the last ~5 years: because people like you want all the eye-catching "features" of Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X "ported" to Linux.
This way, when Linux will *really* be considered as "ready for the desktop" by each and every Joe Sixpack and Jane Doe, it will be a horrendous collection of bugs — and people will ask themselves how life was when computers were not such a pile of shit.
Ubuntu's lack of QA is only the beginning…
Of course, smart asses like you lack the proper hormones to be able to understand what "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" means.
In short: fuck off.
Jun 14, 2009 at 15:41
I'm also one of those "yum remove mono*" guys, and an open source "aficionado", but in the desktop area, the best photo management app is Google's Picasa. It's not open source, it runs through wine and I don't even know in what language it's written, BUT:
1. it's _very_ ergonomical (imo);
2. it's FAST, even with very large collections!
3. Did I mention how FAST it is?
4. It doesn't have that many features, but they're to the point.
If I knew any (lower level) programming languages I'd try to mimic Picasa.
Last time I tried F-Spot was like last year and it was SLOW, buggy and it simply didn't do what I wanted (mainly what Picasa does). Who is using this piece of sh*t anyway? Maybe hardcore ubunteros who think it's trendy or smth.
Regarding Tomboy and Gnome Do, I've never seen them, I don't know what they do and can't whine about them (except for the fact they're written in mono).
Just the other day I was talking to a friend of mine who recently tried C# and was impressed by the ease of use and how fast one can write desktop apps. He admitted he was tempted, but also thought Qt (+ py) is more elegant.
In the end maybe we'll end up using apps written by mediocre programmers with (a lot of) free time who can't use more complicated languages. What's even more sad is the fact that there will be more and more idiots running Linux (thanks mainly Ubuntu for that) and pushing up these crappy apps.
Isn't fun great?
Jun 14, 2009 at 16:45
Good post. The good thing is, there's tools like gnote that will crop up and be better than their questionable counterparts like tomboy. This debate will be over.
More and more, I find myself agreeing with arguments put forward by Béranger. KDE4 went and was set up entirely around widgets. Microsoft turned them off by default in Win7, because, turns out, it really was a dumb idea. Tough luck to everyone that tried to copy Vista's "features".
Jun 14, 2009 at 18:19
I agree with your article in some regards. When you have so much anger and you are calling people stupid you will find that you are actually helping to promote what you hate.
I think what we are seeing with Mono is a bunch of Windows developers who are fed-up with Microsoft but still want to program in a language they know rather than learn a new one. These people are moving to Linux and promoting Mono.
The real problem with Mono is license issues that haven't been tested. So what happens when these distros are embedding it and Microsoft comes along to sue the community?? I guess we pull it out but a lot of users will adversely affected as they have become dependent upon those Mono apps.
Is there something equivalent to programming Mono on the Linux side? If so could we create a website that educates programmers to switch and develop in something truly open source?
I don't know as I am just a PHP programmer who switch from Windows to Linux.
Jun 14, 2009 at 20:25
Is there something equivalent to programming Mono on the Linux side? If so could we create a website that educates programmers to switch and develop in something truly open source?
Vala probably http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vala_(programming_language)
Jun 14, 2009 at 20:28
One thing I keep on seeing from people who criticise mono is the way they characterize the applications and the people who like the applications.
"piece of sh*t"
"hardcore ubunteros who think it's trendy or smth"
"crappy apps"
"mediocre programmers"
"idiots running Linux"
That's just from one post from one person. Unfortunately it's rather typical. There are a few people who can express their misgivings in a rational way and are capable of engaging in a genuine exchange of ideas, a conversation, an informed debate. But they seem always to be drowned out by the volume of the shouts of people who are simply on a mission to impose their prejudices on others, which is simply religion or bullying.
It's really hard to care for the opinion of someone who purports to have a valid opinion about this development language and framework but also says
"…. and I don't even know in what language it's written"
And that's the intellectual and ethical level of almost everything emanating from any self-righteous, dogmatic fool you can find anywhere in any time, speaking on any subject.
Isn't it funny how the people decline to take them seriously?
It must be a conspiracy……
We demand equal rights (or better!) for intolerant ill-informed morons!
Jun 14, 2009 at 20:37
In a way I share your sentiment.
Yet, you forget very very important aspect of F/LOSS: it is developer driven.
The only valid way for you to complain about Mono is to make something better than Mono AND complain about Mono.
Otherwise, we can complain all we want - but Mono developers already spoke with their code.
Jun 14, 2009 at 21:06
To me the issue really has nothing to do with Mono itself or whether its great software or not. Until Microsoft CLEARLY shows its intent to treat and deal with the free software open source world fairly its efforts should be shunned and avoided. This is not a slam against those interested in using Mono or Mono based apps. Leave them the freedom to download the libraries and apps them if they wish. Just don't include it by default in distributions. That is simple common sense given the current hostility displayed by Microsoft towards the free and open source world. Base the decision on whether to include these kinds of items in distributions based on their actual actions rather than their vaguely worded "promises".
Jun 14, 2009 at 21:23
Kubuntu user here. The existence of digiKam is proof you don't need mono for 'f-spot'-like functionality. And tomboy can be replaced with gnote. The only reason I ever used mono was to run the 'hugin' panorama stitcher. Surely that can be re-done without mono. Meanwhile, I'll do without photo-stitching, because its-a-trap rings true, and I won't be fooled again.
Jun 14, 2009 at 21:25
"I think what we are seeing with Mono is a bunch of Windows developers who are fed-up with Microsoft but still want to program in a language they know rather than learn a new one."
That may be true, Chris, but still bad. If they're that fed up with Microsoft they really should start learning a new language (how hard can it be to switch to C++ for that matter?). My words may seem idiotic as the only programming I did (if you can call it that) is some shell scripting, but I'm at some philosophical level maybe I do make some sense.
Microsoft hasn't (yet) hurt Mono only because it's or it will at some point bring them revenue; therefore, how hard can it be to show some common sense and humanity and use a replacement for Mono? The choices are out there.
If I ever win the lottery (I'm not even playing, but still.. ) I'll hire some kick ass Linux programmers to build those apps we miss
Jun 14, 2009 at 22:26
Cry much? Its just this type of "f*** mono" ranting that draws most of us into the neutral to pro mono camps. Jo's post was considerate, detailed and followed to a logical conclusion supporting her supposition(s). Your whine + follow on comments? Not so much as anything more than religious zealotry.
Oh yeah, and have a blast with your nautilus photo manager. giving two thumbs up for the comedy factor there bro. LMAO.
Jun 14, 2009 at 22:56
Agree that Picasa is the best photo management app…
Closed source… We all know…
But it is the best, and it is CROSSPLATFORM (!!!!!)
Meaning that my Mac people can use it, my Vista folks, my XP customers, and my little Linux crowd…
I used F-spot for about a year, before Picasa was available for Linux… But Picasa is vastly superior…
Jun 14, 2009 at 23:28
@Takla
"And that's the intellectual and ethical level of almost everything emanating from any self-righteous, dogmatic fool you can find anywhere in any time, speaking on any subject."
I'm only whining in such a manner about Mono and Compiz stuff; I don't recall other subjects.
Oh, and I'm not a fool, although I'm not a programmer. Are you one of those "hardcore ubunteros" (btw, what I said earlier didn't imply all ubuntu users are idiots) or just a "mediocre programmer"?
"That's just from one post from one person. Unfortunately it's rather typical."
It can't be so typical for nothing.
@cas
Whatever.
Jun 14, 2009 at 23:52
Hello,
Using Debian for several years, and now on Xubuntu (yes I wanted ext4 !), there is a nice neat little .deb package very useful out there. Just download and install.
You can find it here if you want :
http://tim.thechases.com/mononono/
Yours truly
Alejo
Jun 15, 2009 at 03:23
where’s the big surprise that was mentioned in a blog post ago? is it ready yet?
Jun 15, 2009 at 05:52
There is (was?) this idea that lowering the entry level on programming apps was a good thing. There would be so many more people that could help build apps. Yeah, they'd help build cruft.
This is the problem with a lot of apps these days. I don't think I'm a great programmer, but then I take a look at some code and I could cry. WTF?! :/ The the dangerous part is when distros start including cruft by default.
Even Debian is being affected by this BS recently. They were probably one of the most hardcore when it came to ideals. And now?
Well, in the future, there will probably a back lash of programmers and hackers that are fed up with the noobs.
I can't believe Gnome has included some Mono apps. Is this correct? This is no gossip? Are you sure? Dear Heavenly Father, I thank thee for KDE.
Eat out or learn to cook yourself. Don't whine like bitches… bitches.
Jun 15, 2009 at 07:27
Some of you guys just don't get it. mono was created by Microsoft. Microsoft does NOTHING that doesn't advance their agenda of destroying ANY threat to their profits. Since Linux and F/OSS are now threatening those profits, Microsoft will do whatever it can to destroy those threats Microsoft's goal is to (literally) own YOUR computer.
The point of the above statement is simple. Microsoft is EVIL, and anything from Microsoft should be avoided at all costs!
Jun 15, 2009 at 07:51
Most mono lovers don't understand this simple sentence that says "Don't make it part of default install".
Users are always free to install Mono and applications based on it if they so desire from the repos. But that argument that users are also free to remove it when it is installed by default, sounds like "You can always remove the rod I inserted in you backside with your bare hands"
Some Gnome developers intend to screw their users in the long run, that is becoming pretty obvious now,
Jun 15, 2009 at 12:14
More silly characterisations: "mono lovers"
example: I don't use mono. I don't love it. My objection to the campaign against it is that it's based on it's origin, not the facts. But mono lovers is a widely used demeaning characterisation of anyone who objects to the witch hunt.
Are we going to have categories of free software, ordered according to prejudice and hatred? What else might be free software and permissible in a repo but not allowed to be on an install CD. Works by people of a different ethnic origin? Works by groups who also produce proprietary works? Works originating from fields of endeavour we object to, perhaps medical research or the military? Works from companies that have competed hard against a free alternative? Works with contributions from people with low moral standards? We should start a eugenics/morality research program and cast out the unclean?
That's good bye to the entire free software world including the kernel.
It should be an issue about software freedom but most of the people who campaign against this piece of free software demonstrate that in fact it's religion (aka stupidity, blind prejudice, intolerance and a remarkable aversion to facts):
"Microsoft is EVIL" or "anything from Microsoft should be avoided at all costs!"
.avi containers?
smb protocol?
ms-ttf fonts?
start button?
bitmap images?
chm docs?
The thing about free software is that it has its roots in reason and ethics, not hatred, ignorance or prejudice. This means it doesn't discriminate against persons, groups or fields of endeavour. This works both ways. The GPL forbids discrimination on those terms in using and distributing free software and we are also able to assess the work of people and groups freely, without considering prejudice, fear or hatred.
There are many well established religions with long histories of irrationality, hatred, scare-mongering, idiocy, violence, slander and so on. Surely they will happily accommodate some of these people?
Jun 15, 2009 at 14:03
For fucks’ sake people, Novell were given a discriminatory, time-limited covenant that stated that Microsoft wouldn’t sue them or their customers.
The problem sane people have with mono is THIS and ONLY this. It is not a religious fucking war, only idiots see it that way and characterise one side or the other as zealots or whatever. The mono stuff has nothing AT ALL to do with a belief in a deity.
And here’s the rub, if Microsoft offered an *unlimited* patent covenant for *everybody*, there would be absolutely no bickering about the subject at all and we could all get on with our lives.
Instead, no, that would be too easy. Let’s call each other names and tell the “mono-haters” they are freetards and call the “mono-lovers” Microsoft stooges, and have endless rants about the spirit of the GPL and what is good and bad. Let’s all completely miss the fucking point and help the enemies of FOSS to fragment the community further with constant bitching.
Jun 15, 2009 at 20:13
" Comparing a compiled language against an interpreted one."
(from @3)
It depends whether the interpreted language has built -in functions, or (incl) the ability to load and interfere with *.dlls|*sos.
This is rather the idea of comparisons which makes me ill at ease (for the same database manager, one currently achieves ratii of 1/100: with the same interpreted language, ratii of 1/3000 were reached in http://wiki.r-project.org/rwiki/doku.php?id=tips:programming:code_optim2&s=speed and the version with a linked *so was not the fastest!!!).
What makes me uneasy in the article is the fact that there were SOME (sic!) benchmarks leading to the inferiority of
Python vs mono (testing conditions were not specified)…
Another thing makes me uneasy, it is the number of hits ("June 13th, 2009 | Software | 25 Comments | 2,329 views")
Jun 15, 2009 at 21:14
Of course everyone's hate of mono is a political issue. Just like why I use GPL'ed software as opposed to closed source. That's all about politics as well. The fact is, most of us do not like Microsoft and really don't want to get sued by the richest company on earth. I bet Tomboy didn't really wanted to get sued for the FAT file system, everyone thought because vfat was open, it was free. It is not. Stay away from Microsoft products. Copy them if you like but innovate and best them.
Jun 15, 2009 at 21:45
NomonoNomonoNomono….
Dropping Microsoft, Windows, anti-virus and all related crap was a conscious decision. Now all I want is to run Linux and FREE applications to do my job and live free of crapware, and never worry about all the hassles that currently drive a windows box into a gamebox where everyone but the owner get to decide what processes run on it. I simply don't want Microsoft and Bill and Icaza and Hovsepian and all these "nice" persons handling a single bit of data in MY computers, be it at home or at my –own– company.
So, bear with me: No mono No mono No mono…
Jun 16, 2009 at 10:34
Hi,
I am really concerned about those posts I've read through past few days. Hate Mono? Love Mono? Damn it!
No prejudice, no hate and no love on my side. I am just a programmer, that tends to do the work the easiest and most effective way.
I was using scripting languages, I was using Java, Looooooong time ago I was using c++ …
But there is nothing compared to C# when it comes to ease of use for developers. I am using it past few years and I must say, that I was really happy to see, that someone tries to put the same abilities in Linux.
Reading this Crap I am starting to think about contacting Microsoft and ask them, what they really thinks, because what I see here seems to be rumors for me. I haven't seen any statements from MS so far… Hey, you've got some on MS site? Give me the link to see, cause other vice I'll still think, that I hate MS for 1000+1 reasons, but if they did something good, than it is C#/.NET environment, thus providing it for me as a hardcore developer in Linux seems to be good idea for me…
I am sorry if I made you upset…
Free should be free, the C# has its ECMA specs, making it free to implement. So what the hell is this about?
Jun 16, 2009 at 10:45
"But there is nothing compared to C# when it comes to ease of use for developers."
Yeah, there is nothing like using unnecessarily complex frameworks and dependencies just to print "Hello world" in a GUI window.
Yeah, there is nothing like using C# when C, C++, Python or anything else would do. I mean, Gtk# instead of Gtk+, gtkmm, PyGtk. Or even PyQt! ADDING MONO DEPENDECIES FOR A STUPID BLOODY LITTLE APPLICATION IS IDIOTIC!
Note that I would have said the same if GNOME-based distro would ship Java apps instead of C# apps.
This level of complex dependencies is UNNEEDED.
Elegance is simple. Too much is too much.
Once again, it's NOT ABOUT MICROSOFT in my denial of Mono! OTHER people worry about patents, etc. — not me!
I just don't need a gun to kill a fly. That's all. And I don't want to be required that gun.
Jun 16, 2009 at 11:57
Mono love or hate aside, to me the issue is whether a desktop should be subverted by third party technology.
The core of GNOME is programmed in C using the Gtk widget set. Is it therefore unreasonable to expect that GNOME-included applications should be programmed with those technologies. Is Python for this, Ruby for that, Mono for something else a sensible way to construct a cohesive desktop?
I thought not and recently switched from GNOME to KDE which seems to fit in with my beliefs. Do I miss beagle, f-spot and tomboy? Not really, I have nepomuk/strigi, digiKam and basKet which replicate the formers' function entirely to my satisfaction and they are all native KDE applications.
How did I achieve this remarkable feat without my distribution trying to convince me that I should install Mono by default? Simple, I installed Mandriva Free!
We have a choice in these things already perhaps we should actually exercise it. Who knows you might change the way you work for the better.
Jun 16, 2009 at 15:27
Neil; the whole of the KDE desktop is coded in Qt by Trolltech, wich wasn't even an open platform until relatively recently. The incentive for KDE to use Qt was simplicity, not freedom. KDE being coded in a closed-source language, BTW, was the incentive for de Icaza to create GNOME.
So, all that you have there is some fears, and that makes you switch to the desktop environment that traditionally never cared much about political correctness? Well done, it certainly pays to be ignorant about history…
Jun 16, 2009 at 16:54
eet : “KDE being coded in a closed-source language”
QT -which is a __library__ (unless there are historical developments changing definitions! - and some helpers (executables like assistant, moc, etc…) , not a language - can be compiled from the sources, now, with g++ (mainly). I do not see which part of QT is “closed source”. This is even the only way it is installed on Windows!!!!
And the *dual * licence is very clear {cf http://www.qtsoftware.com/downloads}….
OTOH, QT can be put on a device with a small memory print (qt embedded or qtopia)… This is is not the case of kde (at least KDE-4.x : it has weird pulses of RAM greediness -about 100M- and CPU consumption, even if I remove services like strigi/nepomux which are greedy and I do not need).
For mono based applications, I do not know (I have gnome without mono at work because the mono parts are not useful) . Perhaps it is so secret no [open source?] application can be converted???
I hope I am not too ignorant about the nature/openness of source…
Jun 20, 2009 at 15:41
That is the way Ximian operates. Technology infection. LSB was another tool to force their technologies on others. Novell is Microsoft's open source work bench
Fortunately there are also the good GTK guys like the LXDE community. Development needs to rest in the hands of a worldwide community, not US corporations.