Mrs Martin, she annoys me
Yes, she does. I couldn’t possibly assert that “CentOS (or Scientific Linux) is marvelous for the desktop” — and I have never stated such a thing. On the contrary, what I said is that RHEL5 is sort of another XP, which can be read in several keys.
It only happens that I am using it today (CentOS 5.3 on the Acer and Scientific Linux 5.3 with IceWM on the HP Omnibook). Not because CentOS is “really good”, not because it’s “better than other distros”, but merely because it’s “standard” (and Mrs Martin knows that very well) and because… everything else is worse in a way or another!
To only mention the major names:
- Whatever releases twice a year comes with completely new bugs, breakages and regressions each and every time (so we covered Fedora, Mandriva, Ubuntu); and being supported for not very long (especially Fedora), this is a no-go;
- Ubuntu’s 8.04 LTS has a broken hibernation as a regression over 7.10 (they screwed the kernel), and the latest “normal” release screwed the Intel video driver (something valid for whoever includes the recent X.Org versions) — and I am using Intel 945;
- I can’t trust Debian as a matter of principle, because they never provide the tzdata updates alongside the security updates (but only in “volatile”, which is a stupid concept) and because you may never do any planing: as long as nobody knows when the next release will happen, nobody knows how long the current release is going to be supported;
- Slackware doesn’t offer an official GNOME, and it requires too much tweaking for a desktop user;
- openSUSE 11.1 is actually good, but I hate to need to “decustomize” it to get a decent desktop layout and no Mono; besides, it’s bloated, it has too many ways to manage the packages, it simply looks a mess to me, although I agree it might be a good choice after all;
- …err, what was left? No, not the rolling-release distros! While there are some good ideas in the concept, using a rolling-release distro is just heading for disaster. And please, don’t start me on Debian “testing” and whatnot. I am looking for dependable, reproducible environments, not for moving targets.
But Mrs Martin got upset because I criticized her pet distro, Vector Linux.
Let’s put it this way: Vector was a huge mess before Mrs Martin started to help them clean up their repositories. Now it has improved, but I still don’t like it.
Yes, I don’t like the way it looks, and I am surprised that Mrs Martin can’t have a better understanding of what “polished” and “enterprise look” mean. They can mean “Windows 2000-like” (or Windows XP with the “Classical” look), they can mean “GNOME-like”, if I am in a very good mood I could accept Windows 7 for a corresponding look, but definitely I can’t accept the Vector Linux look-’n-feel for a professional, polished look!
Apart from that, Vector Linux indeed was short of GNOME up to and including version 5.9. Starting with 6.0, one of the changes (not officially mentioned in the release notes!) is that they started to offer GSB 2.22.
Now, let’s see:
- GSB 2.22 is an old version, not maintained by anyone upstream — no “patches” directory, just take a look. Are they maintaining it downstream? Heck, it’s not even announced downstream!
- GSB was not announced as part of the Vector Linux distribution (ditto).
- GSB was not put under veclinux-6.0/extra/gnome — the few GNOME libraries that existed (for GIMP & stuff dependencies) were in places like veclinux-5.9/extra/gnome before, but now there is veclinux-6.0/gsb-2.22, which makes it look like an “unofficial add-on”.
- Should you install the “full” metapackage, you’d get Mono too.
This is only in the line of the Vector Linux spirit of messing with things:
- They released the final edition of 6.0 Standard/GOLD only as an install CD, whereas the 6.0 Light was released both as a LiveCD and as an install CD;
- However, they’ve released 5.9 Standard/GOLD both as installable and as LiveCD… but the LiveCD Final was released 9 months after the installable one, and also 9 months after the Beta1 of the LiveCD!
Oh well. Normally I wouldn’t care about the status of Vector Linux (I normally don’t trust anymore the “almost one-man” distros), but Mrs Martin managed to piss me off with this one:
Anyway, please, by all means stick with CentOS. I think it’s pretty well crap on the desktop and it’s about to be dumped. You like it so we clearly look at distros in entirely different ways.
So I am now pretty much sure I’ll never try using Vector Linux again.
And I won’t bother asking what does she mean by “about to be dumped” (by whom?). Anyway, Vector Linux can’t possibly be dumped as long as it has never been adopted by a significant “market share”, right?
Too bad, for it’s not such a bad distro after all — but it looks like having been developed by teenagers. (Or maybe Robert Lange needs some glasses and a different shirt.)
Jul 27, 2009 at 16:03
It has been 6 days since Mozilla announced its security update to Firefox 3.0. An update from 3.0.11 to 3.0.12 and 5 out of 6 vulnerabilities were marked as critical. Red Hat released updated packages on the very same day on 21st of July, but CentOS 5 did not received any updates since then… I think 6 days is a very long time lag for an enterprise quality OS.
Jul 27, 2009 at 16:08
Scientific Linux 5 packaged the updated FF presto:
firefox-3.0.12-1.el5_3.i386.rpm. Jul 23 16:30
If you can live with their ugly artwork, I suggest you to use Scientific Linux instead of CentOS.
The CentOS guys are sleeping, and I won’t mention names here.
___
P.S.: Is Iceweasel 3.0.6-1 immune in Etch? Because only Sid got the update to 3.0.12-1.
Jul 27, 2009 at 18:39
I can't stand the ugliness of Vector Linux's appearance.
The nv package is broken as in Wolvix (but Wolvix is still in beta 2), causing the Firefox not able to render png in several websites (including beranger.org).
In terms of speed, I find it on par with Zenwalk and Wolvix, being Wolvix is the most aesthetically pleasing and Zenwalk being the close second (but more active in maintaining the development).
So it is back to personal taste, I think.
Jul 27, 2009 at 19:40
There is something I do not understand : Centos install on a "net" 'book' (I have no IT connection, and I do not want one; the screen are too tiny to read comfortably) was (_partially_, but put in the last sentences, which are seldom skipped) meant to show what Red Hat could achieve (professional demo);
there are live CDs from both Centos and Scientific Linux which are very easily converted into live USBs with unetbootin (and simple applications -such as gcc-4.4.1+gfortran - can easily be added with a simple mount of a virtual file (/opt and /usr/local are empty, waiting to be filled without effort), either by compilation or with relocating rpms ….).
For a demo - live Cds were (are?) meant for that!- , it is maybe sufficient (for the real part, RH sells services and it does not harm), most highly reproducible (a live CD image..) and I did not find any flaws in both of them (my neighbor complained about wifi *and* sound, but it takes him 2 days to connect to some wifi with Mandriva and he had therefore no access to helping fora with Centos & SL I gave him on USB).
Jul 28, 2009 at 17:27
I run Debian Testing and Debian Sid and, as rolling releases go, they're both very stable (except for the Intel driver in XOrg as well on Sid), AND they provide tzdata updates (I just got one yesterday).
Jul 28, 2009 at 21:00
Mrs. Martin? When did I get married? It's news to me.
No Firefox 3.0.12 or 3.5.1? CentOS can't keep up with basic security updates? Sorry, that makes it crap, period, not just on the desktop. Even VectorLinux, which you hate, had 3.5.1 out within 24 hours.
I really could care less if you like or hate a distro. Honestly. If you are entitled to strong opinions then so am I, right?
GNOME was an issue you raised for VL 6.0, not 5.9. Oh, and it was included (not GSB, mind you) in the 5.8 repositories. Get your history right if you want to attack a distro, OK?
I annoyed you. That's fine. You annoy me all the time with your blanket condemnation and hatred of Israel. The only way Israel will cease to exist is through genocide which, in effect, you are implicitly advocating. With that sort of blatant anti-Semitism (and yes, when you advocate destruction of the Jewish homeland that is precisely what it is) I should have written you off as a hatemonger a long time ago. Don't ask me why I didn't.
Jul 28, 2009 at 21:57
"Mrs." is a term of politesse when you speak of/to a woman you don't know anything about — like marital status (which is not something everyone should know), etc. Unless she's 16, you can normally use "Mrs.".
Oh, so VL-5.8 had a full GNOME, VL-5.9 has a few bits (what for?), VL-6.0 has a totally different GNOME stack, and you call VL coherent?
As for the genocide, Israel is one of the major perpetrators of such a crime. Looks like each and every Israeli believes she/he is a God, which is obviously not the case.
Jul 29, 2009 at 01:44
At least in the U.S. "Mrs." is not polite and assumes marriage. Ms. is the correct term.
Israel commits genocide? Where are the bodies? Who has been killed? The term, when applied to Israel, is false and devalues the meaning of the word.
Where are your cries of protest about Sudan, which has committed genocide first in the south and now in Darfur, to the tune of millions dead. There Arabs have killed black, non-Arab African citizens based on nothing but racism.
Where are your cries of protest about Congo, where wholesale slaughter has happened along tribal lines?
You devalue the deaths of those killed in read genocide, as happened in Rwanda and as happened to Jews and Roma (gypsies) at the hands of the Nazis.
Your use of the term is blood libel and anti-Semitic in the extreme. You characterization of Israelis (myself included) is bigotry, pure and simple. Have you ever even been to Israel?
What really bothers you about me is that I speak my mind and I have the temerity to disagree with you. Guess what? That won't change.
Jul 29, 2009 at 02:00
Why should I go to Israel? Because it’s a country on the map? A country with stupid concrete walls to separate people from people?
I didn’t say there weren’t much more important genocides. But Israel claims to be a democracy. Democracy my ass!
As for “Ms.”, mea culpa. I’ve been taught English in school in the 80s, and we learned something like “the 1950 UK English”, which did not include “Ms.”, but only “Mrs.”. I guess “Ms.” was invented by the feminists who didn’t want to be associated with a determined marital status…
Jul 29, 2009 at 10:16
"I annoyed you. That's fine. You annoy me all the time with your blanket condemnation and hatred of Israel. The only way Israel will cease to exist is through genocide which, in effect, you are implicitly advocating. "
Which times ? a link… Seems soooooo ****implicit***, indeed…
Jul 29, 2009 at 10:19
From what I can remember now, 2 links:
http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&2009/01/03/21/00/06-bestiary-1-2009
http://beranger.org/v3/wordpress/2009/05/12/caitlyns-mission/
Jul 29, 2009 at 10:32
That makes two posts … out of ??? well, "all the time"!!!! (BTW I do not agree with the term genocide in Palestinia : war crimes -*or their absence*- would be more likely if independant observers were allowed to conclude to anything without being -ritually, out of some inheritage- called antisemits).
Jul 29, 2009 at 10:42
There is a politically-incorrect saying here (I hope it wasn’t invented by me), which says: «There are two peoples under the sun who believe of themselves that they’re Übermensch: the Israelis and the Magyars.»
I believe there is much truth in this one — you know, the Germans are not anymore what they used to be, so they need not be included in this list. (And the “Omericoins” are not a people but an eclectic crowd… with a fascist government system.)
Jul 29, 2009 at 11:42
o yeah..
don't forget..
jews killed jesus.. and they can deny it all centuries long like ahmadinejad denied that holocaust ever happenned.
by the way anti-semitic is not the same as anti-zionist.
bunch of palestinian organizations is no good also, but it doesn't make zionism a right thing to do.
calm down mrs… uh ms.
maybe i miss a line or two, but being the article is about centos and vector linux, exactly in what paragraph did it say about anything jewish?
Jul 29, 2009 at 12:39
“under the sun ” ? Magyars??
Even during night, a tiny representant believes He is the salt of the Earth….
What is funny in the second link you gave is that it is linked to Me Martin’s posts where she explained one should _never_ mess technical and political things…… if I have a good memory.
This is one of the nice aspects of Ms Martin writings (another one is that she avoids “conflits d’interet” : perhaps she could become president of the Neuillystan, as she is more clever than Sainte Victime and more clever (and more honest) than a huge majority political (wo)men of this unblessed country).
“ahmadinejad denied that holocaust ever happenned.
”
In his best days, Ahminedjad does not deny holocaust happened : but it was not “Arabs” fault (there were other genocides after) and the right place to put Israel would be in Austria (the vote for Anschluss was 99.7% in favor of Hitler and they knew what happened in Germany : in Germany, 60% voted in favor of Hitler :
it would be consistent, ….
if guilt and resposability could be inherited : Holocaust based arguments (for adventages to-day), else, are as silly as “killing Jesus” arguments - and Italians did, too! that makes atheist laugh -)….
As for Mrs, I noticed that unmarried French women insisted on belling spelled “Madame abr. Mme” on documents attesting they had a responsability- one sometimes puts Me, under Omericon influence, but it is rather used for lawyers.
Jul 29, 2009 at 13:49
ok, that's a good point roi.
too bad, unlike mint's lefebvre who still open his mind to opposing views, MS. martin seems to be in her own world. what's more saddening about it, she brings it all with the non-participating VL (and unlike lefebvre, she's not even VL's founder… poor robert lange).
i don't any strong objection towards VL (apart from problematic nv driver that is probably inherited from slackware), but now it's kinda sour. thanks ms.
Jul 29, 2009 at 13:54
VL is not that bad, and Mrs/Ms/whatever Martin is not excessively involved in the project. There is however the issue of a very messy repo, possibly with highly incomplete sources:
http://ever-increasing-entropy.blogspot.com/2009/07/ongoing-centos-53-on-netbook-saga.html#c643112792470938367
Jul 30, 2009 at 00:09
@Béranger
«There are two peoples under the sun who believe of themselves that they’re Übermensch: the Israelis and the Magyars.»
Each of them have some inferiority complexes with deep roots.
Israel is like a lonely island in a wild Muslim sea. The Israelis born in other countries are often targets of local nationalism (at least in Europe).
Israel can't have normal reaction, because the action or re-reaction is crazy - do you see a normal state or government around them? (hope you understand the meaning of "normal") Do they have to surrender and then emigrate to… (where?) or do they have to organize a mass suicide?
As a "Magyar" who knows some facts about history, I must confess that the Hungarians didn't won a war in the last centuries. Today we are member of NATO, but still on the loser's side (Afghanistan, Iraq). Where we enter it crashes (look at the European Union :)).
The "Magyars" has to "fight" only with themselves: the bitter history has to be digested, the wounds have to be healed and the lessons have to be learned. Unfortunately the political ecosystem isn't favourable for this process. I'm afraid that the voices barking "We are the Champions of the World" will be heard louder in the next few years (some Hungarian extremists were elected even in the European Parliament few month ago). Please make the difference between Magyars and Magyars, because we all have the same national item and identical passports, but we think in different ways.
Take a look at the positive aspects: without the well (or less) known Israeli or Magyar personalities (sometimes both at the same time) the sciences, arts, sport, entertainment, or whatever you want would be less. Do I have to tell some names?…
Think at your (our, because I'm Romanian citizen, too) own country. Do you agree that without Jews and Hungarians Romania wouldn't be what it is now?
Jul 31, 2009 at 00:26
"Me Martin’s posts where she explained one should _never_ mess technical and political things…… if I have a good memory."
You don't have a good memory because I never said any such thing. My personal blog has mixed technical and politics for years. What I said was that one shouldn't mix distributing a Linux distribution and politics. That's a very specific and very different thing. Clement Lefebvre got into hot water not because he expressed a pro-Palestinian or anti-Israel position but because he did so in the official Mint blog rather than his personal blog at first. Ditto anticapitalista, for his naming of an antiX release, not for having a given opinion. Doing that drives people away from a given distro for no good reason.
My comment about "dumping" CentOS was referring to my machine only. Never did I extend it to anything else, R-C. CentOS is, in my view, not better than anything else. It's worse than most I've tried on the desktop. Now they can't even get a security patch out and the whole thing turns out to be a one man show. I'm sure y'all have seen the open letter to Lance Davis on the front page of the centos.org website. The whole distro is in jeopardy because of one guy? To me that makes it utterly unacceptable for anything.
Oh, and despite the comment above VectorLinux has never been a one man show. One of the core developers, Uel Archuletta, had to step away for a while and life went on. The same would be true if Robert Lange had to. Oh, and by all means ask Robert about me. I've received lots of very warm thanks from him. I consider him a friend and I know he feels the same way about me.
Ms/Mrs/whatever is a clear attempt to continue to be disrespectful. Ms. was indeed a creation of the women's movement, but it has been widely adopted since the '60s. Going to school in the '80s is no excuse.
I'll tackle some of the new and clearly anti-Semitic (not just anti-Zionist) crap above in a separate response later.
Jul 31, 2009 at 14:20
tmc, Romania is a mixture of all kind of "foreign" ethnic and national groups, not only Magyar and Israelis, and you know it very well (Germans, Turks, Armenians, Russians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Serbs, etc. etc.).
Knowing that the Romanians (the "green" ones ;-)) are not that patriotic as some extremists try to make us believe, it's actually surprising that Romania managed to keep being a "national, unitary state"!
Romania is what it is… *despite* itself, and especially in spite of the Romanian themselves!
I have no issue with the so-called minorities, unless they try to discriminate *me*. As a matter of fact, I never went to Miercurea Ciuc / Csíkszereda, nor to Odorheiu Secuiesc / Székelyudvarhely, but when I had a short vacation in… Szováta (98% Magyars), they were very civilized and behaved very correctly towards me. Maybe this wouldn't happen again
Jul 31, 2009 at 15:21
I believe Caitlyn is right in what she is saying. I believe you guys are way too harsh with her. You don't have to be so disrespectful if you don't agree with her…
Jul 31, 2009 at 17:42
“You don’t have a good memory ” : I agree I had a
* kind
and
* optimistic memory (that is a clever point of view IMO Never to miss technical - not only distributions- and political things, and more general than GNU(linux) distributions: giving its origin to Me Martin).
@Beranger:
thanks for the link which is consistent with the title of Me Martins blog.
a) Her blog tries to show that confusion and disorder will increase
b) in the quoted article, where Centos is the topic (it was the authors choice), the very author managed to show in the following discussion (except for 2 lines, there was no effort from the very author to keep writing about Centos) that Vector Linux’s source is free, available … somewhere and …some people might know *where* parts are …. (I bet reminding that a funny thing is very idiotic) be is not at all inconsistent with the title of the blog…
Nota: some French women insist on being called ‘Madame’ (”Me” Maitresse is ironical, except for she-lawyers (”Maitre (pliant) is ridiculous for he-lawyers), but it was very polite in the 1300-1400 years)
even if they are not married… so did my wife -she was both French and Malagasy- before marrying (and my wife decided by herself, with *her* brains, not asking to any movement, the movement being widely spread or not, young or forty years dated).
Et la cerise sur le gateau est dans DW de cette semaine :”seeing attacks, insults, and disrespect where there is none. (by Caitlyn Martin )”